Deletion of Posts (and other stuff...)

[Bill Jurens]

I have noticed that one of our most prolific posters, Vic Dale, has very recently chosen to remove all -- or at least most -- of his posts from this forum. (Insofar as the deleted posts are marked "Withdrawn by Author", I assume that they have been removed voluntarily by Mr. Dale himself and have not been deleted by the webmasters themselves.) I imagine -- but only imagine -- that this is in response to correspondence from previous moderators, or perhaps to my recent appointment as the current moderator of this forum.

While it is clearly Mr. Dale's right to delete these posts, this action is, I think, regrettable overall insofar as it renders the remaining portions of the affected threads more-or-less incomprehensible in places. While in some cases, the threads were so long and convoluted that it is unlikely that anyone except real-time participants would attempt to follow them anyway, others were not, and much -- though by no means all -- was probably worthy of preservation. In that regard, I hope Mr. Dale will consider reinserting at least some of his posts again, perhaps in slightly edited form, so that readers of this forum might get a better idea of the give-and-take of previous discussions. I invite him to continue posting, perhaps with slightly more restraint.

While it may be tempting for others to remove their posts in these threads as well, I would request that they refrain from doing so for a week or so, so that Mr. Dale might have a few days to reconsider his action(s). If, at the end of that time, he has taken no action to replace any of these posts, then it might be worthwhile considering rewriting and/or deleting other related posts by other authors. Time will tell.

In closing (this post), I feel honored and priviledged to have been chosen to moderate these forums on the HMS Hood website. She was a proud ship populated by fine men. In her honor -- and in their memory -- may we sail a proud forum populated by fine men as well.

Anchors Aweigh!

Bill Jurens.

[RNfanDan]

For my own part I, too have chosen to edit and/or delete a handful of my posts, with the aim of improving grammatical and spelling errors and maintaining topical continuity and relevance, respectively. I felt, in the latter case, this was necessary in order to help do my part to "clear the air" a bit. Going forward, I hope not to contribute anything to the detriment of this superb forum.

My congratulations go out to Mr. Jurens, on being chosen as moderator!

Respectfully,

Dan

[Paul Cadogan]

Let me add my congratulations too Bill! Frank and Paul could not have made a better choice.

Deleted posts or not, I hope we can move forward Ventis Secundis....

Paul

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

if ever a person had to have a dream about something positive to happen, I was not going to be able to think of something so positive to happen.

I am very happy about this fantastic step forward and I would like to personally thank Frank and Paul for this new forum board management system.

There was no better selection you can hope to have than Bill Jurens for this moderator role and I congratulate and welcome him to lead us all here in with his naval warfare knowledge experience and wise personal approach.

This said, I am looking forward to execute everything the new board moderator would like me to do of course, just let me know, no problems.

AD MAIORA SEMPER .....

Bye Antonio

[FW_Allen]

If anything was removed, then he would have removed it himself. We didn't delete anything.

Well, I did accidentally move some posts from the "Technical" forum into this forum, but that was by mistake! Doh! Sadly, due to a glitch, I was unable to put them back (but their respective owners...the people who opened the threads) can put them back if they wish to do so. I would appreciate it if we could keep the technical posts there, the crew posts in the crew forum, etc. We need a little subdivision afterall

With regard to what Bill said, I fully agree. If Vic doesn't restore his bits and the threads no longer flow properly, then it might be wise to re-start those particular threads so that there is a clear/concise chain of posts.

[Vic Dale]

To Clarify.

Frank and Paul did not remove my posts. I did this myself so as to take the heat out of the discussions. It seems that exception has been taken to the way I post, what I post and even the fact that I post and the only possible course of action was to withdraw my opinion from the threads which have had the most acrimonious exchanges. I am not sure what people dislike, and I have not the time to find out. I have received no emails, telling me what I have done so more or less blanket removal seemed the only option.

I have left some threads intact however as although there was disagreement it was handled in a friendly manner and without any personal attacks. Until I read through it I was intent on pulling out of the site altogether, but I found the discussion and the various exchanges so refreshing that it seemed to present a model for the way forward. I am grateful in the extreme to those individuals who found it in themselves to agree or disagree with me without flying off the handle. Many were quite junior members.

In future I will stay away from the day-to-day postings and confine myself to making periodic observations as they occur. I will of course respond to those who pose questions or disagreements in a friendly manner, but there are six senior members with whom I will have no future dealings.

I believe it was Lenin who said,

"When you are forced to retreat, do so in an orderly manner and leave no weapon on the battlefield which may be used against you."

One vindictive individual here has started dredging up half-baked material I had left on the Danish site from years ago. I did not leave that site and nor was I pushed out, I simply stopped posting and left everything as it was. Big mistake, because during those discussions I did a lot of thinking out loud, which most were able to see and understand, though some tried to use to discredit me. The same has happened here sadly, which means that if we cannot think out loud we cannot fully share our thoughts and we cannot develop new ideas. All we will have is tablets of stone and that, believe me, will be the death of a site like this.

I welcome the fact that we have a moderator, though I was not aware that we did not have one in the first place. I was of the opinion that the posts were being watched and had I thought they were not I would have flagged personal attacks immediately they occurred. Hopefully the new moderator will begin the task of removing personal attacks from the forum, or asking those who have made them to remove them themselves. I am hoping also that he will start referring to me by the name I post under.

As an act of good faith and in contrition for allowing myself to engage in some of the worst exchanges, I have withdrawn the text of the majority my posts, even though the heat did not develop immediately and I still feel I made some very good points and admittedly some rubbish. I hope others will follow suit and demonstrate the leadership which senior members should.

The Hood site can have a fresh start if people are willing. It is good and valuable site and deserves better than we have been giving it recently.

Vic Dale

[FW_Allen]

I too hope that everyone will be professional and carry on. If we stick to the rules, things should go smoothly. Overall, we need to rememebr not to let it get personal. Goodness knows I'm guilty of that (anyone who saw my exchanges with the "reverse photo theory" author a few years ago can testify to this) and I know it can be very hard. Some people are like oil and water. Even so, please try to keep it from getting personal. If things get a bit hot, then I know Bill will definitely step in, but please everyone, try to keep it from getting that far.

With the above in mind, I just wanted to remind everyone of one of the tools we have here on the forum. It may be the only option for some people if they feel they can't get along:

Friends and Foes - If you have people you find insightful and helpful, you can set it up so that you are notified when they post. On the other hand, if there are people you wish to ignore, you can set it up so that you do not see their posts at all. It’s available via the User Control Panel (near top left of screen after you log-in) then the “Friends and Foes” tab.

The only drawback I see to this tool is that it may leave some threads a bit spotty here and there. Otherwise, it might prove useful.

Frank

[Bill Jurens]

To all:

Thanks for the many expressions of support that you have written in the past few days. I am honored, flattered, and hopefully worthy...

To Vic Dale:

I am sure that many of our participants somewhat regret the deletion of your postings, as they render much of their work in these threads more-or-less incomprehensible in its current format. Unfortunately, your attempt to remove all of the heat from these discussions has removed a good deal of the light as well.

Before we make any final decisions regarding what to do with these gutted threads, we do need to know if you would be willing to (or indeed can) reinsert some of your posts, perhaps in edited form, so that the relevant threads might be reconstructed in a briefer and more collaborative style. Should you choose to consider reinserting some of your posts, I think many of the other participants would be willing to go back and re-edit their posts as well. And they certainly do need editing...

If your posts cannot be reinserted, then I think we have little choice but to lock-down the threads permanently, perhaps retaining them as a sort of fragmentary historical record of (some) things past, or to delete them entirely. That would be unfortunate.

Comments from other forum members regarding this issue are welcome as well.

Bill Jurens

[Vic Dale]

To Bill Jurens.

I cannot reinsert the posts and the thought of even looking at those threads again as they stand makes me feel physically sick. Things got well out of hand there as some senior members including myself simply forgot how to behave.

Keeping a record of those heated exchanges fragmented or otherwise would simply serve to highlight and underscore a very bad period in the life of this forum and at best give an example of how not to behave. We need a fresh page. I honestly think the best thing would be to get the agreement of the other posters and eradicate those threads. Given that they would have to go back and remove all of the personal attacks that would save a lot of work all round, including for yourself as moderator who would need to check to see if personal attacks had been properly removed. If we drive into a blind alley the only sensible thing to do is reverse out.

For my part I would be able to present my views on each subject again with no difficulty in a single post and I am sure that those other posters will know their own positions. If it was thought worthwhile we could present our respective views again, but on no account will I engage with my erstwhile detractors day to day, or even refer to them personally.

You may note that I have not removed everything and have left some discussions intact even though they do contain some expressions of enmity. However such expressions seemed mild enough to tolerate (largely because I did not retaliate) and as we were mostly still on first name terms at that time they don't look too bad.

I have been under constant and unchecked attack for many months now by a core of senior members who were at the time happy to be seen to be making common cause against me - to crush and silence me. If that was not the intention, that is certainly the way it felt. If I have retaliated, under the circumstances that is only to be expected though it is not something I am proud of, or wish to be seen doing again - it is something I resisted for a fair time too. A good moderator will be able to spot this sort of thing if it ever happens again and nip it in the bud. Posters here must also do their bit by reporting personal attacks in order to help the moderator.

If this site is to have a discussion forum it must permit opinion of varying colours and perception and encourage people to share their thoughts, without fear of being bullied out of them. That is particularly important for the newer younger layers who come along hoping to discuss their ideas. Plenty of new material and ideas have been forthcoming during recent months and as far as that goes I can see why you would wish to keep some of the threads alive. Only by discussing these things can we learn, but on no account can it ever be allowed to get so personal.

With regard to new people seeing the site for the first time I think it is important that they do not see how we have been behaving in recent months hence my desire to see the threads gone.

I hope we can find a way of putting this whole sorry episode behind us and move on.

Vic Dale

[RNfanDan]

To Bill, Frank, et. al....

Vic has made some good points in his last post, and I am in general agreement (FWIW) with the idea of wiping the slate clean all round. There are, however a couple caveats that I feel should be observed, in so doing. In the first of these, where it is apparent that a given topic of discussion has become a "Gordian Knot"-- i.e., the subject is so contentious and insoluble that its reappearance is just as unlikely to reach a concensus or satisfactory conclusion-- it is my opinion that the thread should simply be deleted.

The second caveat is that single subjects should be kept to one thread. Is there a means of "condensing" some of these into fewer threads, while still retaining them?

Going forward, topics should stick to their thread, and vice-versa. Period. The creation of multiple threads with the same topic at the core of each, is analogous to adding extra addresses to the same house!

Most of the members and participants here know which topics these are, without further elaboration.

Respectfully,

Dan